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hasasn a écrit:
Les verset parlents des éléments de purification, quel verset parle de purification adréssé à des personnes particulieres ?
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hassan a écrit:
Le dernier Imam à des conditions d'apparitions, qui sont les même que dans les hadith sunnites.
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hassan a écrit:
Ce n'est pas le cas d' autres salafi qui disent qu'il est une invention perse issu des mythe ancestrales persiques et de son influence sur l'Islam.
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hassan a écrit:
Certes, de ce que j'ai retenu de toi as300, c'est defendre mu'awiya (le nawassib bani umeyya) et rabaisser les hadith sunnites concernant les merites de Ali.
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as300 a écrit:
Les femmes du Prophète saws font partie des ahl ul bayt...et le verset leur est directement révélé (j'espère qu'un jour tu douteras de l'interprétation de tes savants)
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as300 a écrit:
Est-ce que tu reconnais alors que la communauté actuelle n'a pas d'Imam infaillible ?
Oui ou non?
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as300 a écrit:
L'existence du Mahdi raconté par les sunnites n'est pas niée par les salafis en général
Par ocntre, le mahdi occulté, aucun sunnite n'y croit...
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as300 a écrit:
il est la quatrième meilleure personne de la communauté
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as300 a écrit:
Pour le reste, tu veux encore te faire corriger sur des hadith que tu ne maitrises pas?
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hassan a écrit:
Les hadith et donc les exeges sont unanimes le verset 32 et 33 (1ere partie couleur bleue) s'adresse aux femmes de saws, il n'y a jamais eu de doute la dessus.
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hassan a écrit:
C'est faux Allah azawj laisse toujours une preuve sur Terre, et le 12eme successeur, guide, l'Imam est le Mahdi fils de Askari. Des hadiths rapportent que si Allah azwj voulait ralongé sa durée de vie jusque que les conditions de reapparition puissent être atteintes,Allah azwj le ferait.
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hassan a écrit:
Certains sunnites et soufis croient bien qu'il est le fils de Askari et qu'il est née en 260 de l’Hégire
Les asharitesi insultent deja les sunnites qui n'adherent pas à leur croyances du type salafi etc...Citation
hassan a écrit:
Les Salafi insultent deja les sunnites qui n'adherent pas à leur croyances du type asharite etc...
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hassan a écrit:
Certains salafi croivent que le Mahdi est une machination venue de Perse telle une pseudo influence persane sur l'Islam. La rivalité arabo-persane influe d'autant plus sur le conflit chiito-salafi.
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hassan a écrit:
La quatrieme personne car il est le 4eme Caliphe ?
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as300 a écrit:
aux ahl ul bayt ne peut pas se retrouver au milieu de versets destinées aux femmes du Prophète sans que cela ne s'adresse à elles...
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as300 a écrit:
Simple logique
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as300 a écrit:
Où est cet Imam? tu dis qu'il existe: il est où?
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as300 a écrit:
En fait, tu considères le mahdi comme une sorte de prophète saws. Je ne veux pas de tes hadith de pacotille...
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as300 a écrit:
Entre dire qu'il est le fils de hassan et de croire à l'occultation, il y a un monde
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as300 a écrit:
4ème calife bien-guidé...
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as300 a écrit:
on connait le respect que les sunnites ont pour les ahlul bayt
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as300 a écrit:
Démontrer qu'un savant est contre les ahlulbayt car il se trompe de citation est un peu léger...
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hassan a écrit:
Réponds à ma question directement
Où est cet Imam? tu dis qu'il existe: il est où?
Que fait-il? comment guide-t-il l'humanité depuis ces siècles. Réponds à cette question une bonne fois pour toutes
En fait, tu considères le mahdi comme une sorte de prophète saws. Je ne veux pas de tes hadith de pacotille...
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as300 a écrit:
Pour le reste, tu veux encore te faire corriger sur des hadith que tu ne maitrises pas?
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as300 a écrit:
As-tu déjà lu le livre d'ubn taymiyyah sur la logique avant de faire ton copier-coller de débile?
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as300 a écrit:
Quels sont ceux qui ont commandé la Ummah? A part Ali et hassan (ra), aucun...
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as300 a écrit:
J'espère que tu ne vas nous imposer ton interprétation ridicule de ce hadith
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as300 a écrit:
laisse-moi reformuler la question
Entre le début de l'occultation du douzième imam et sa réapparition, qui est l'imam actuel?
Si c'est le Mahdi, que fait-il dans cette période de temps?
Comment guide-t-il la Ummah?
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as300 a écrit:
La question la plus gênante pour toi est celle-là
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as300 a écrit:
DOnc, la question entière est :
où est l'imam? L'imam doit etre présent, doit nous guider, donc, cela veut dire que selon le chiisme, il n'y a personne à la tête de la ummah depuis l'occultation
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hassan a écrit:
Personne ne sait ou est l'Imam et notre but est de l''attendre, car il y a des conditions de réapparition et il est l'Imam de notre temps
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as300 a écrit:Citation
hassan a écrit:
Personne ne sait ou est l'Imam et notre but est de l''attendre, car il y a des conditions de réapparition et il est l'Imam de notre temps
Donc, le monde n'a pas d'imam si vous ne savez pas où il est.
Si un imam se cache, c'est quoi le rôle de cet imam de pacotille...
Vous n'avez pas d'imam actuel, si c'était le cas, comment fait-il pour vous guider?
Il ne suffit pas de dire qu'il existe un chef pour qu'il y en ait un...
Où est cet imam qui est censé guider l'humanité? Est-ce que cela veut dire qu'il n'existe pas de guidance pendant l'occultation?
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zz95 a écrit:
"Quiconque meurt sans avoir connu l'Imam de son temps, mourra en jâhilite"
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hassan a écrit:
Bref tous les exegeses sunnites ou chiites sont unanimes sur le fait que la derniere partie du verset 33/33 s'adresse à 5 personnes en accentuant le chiffre 5 comme enoncé dans les hadiths ci dessus. Et encore nombre de recit non evoqués ici le confirme.
Allah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs from you, O members of the family, and to purify you with a thorough purification.(33:33)) “This was revealed solely concerning the wives of the Prophet.”(tafseer ibn katheer, for 33:33) Citation
as300 a écrit:
1. Al-Razi, al-Tafsir al-Kabir (6:615): “Allah Most High quit using the feminine pronoun in his address and turned to the masculine by saying {liyudhhiba `ankum al-rijsa = to remove uncleanness far from you [masculine plural]}, so as to include both the women of his [i.e. the Prophet's] house and the men. Explanations have differed concerning the ‘Ahl al-Bayt’ but the most appropriate and correct is to say they are his children and wives; al-Hasan and al-Husayn being among them and `Ali being among them… due to his cohabitation with the daughter of the Prophet and his close companionship with the Prophet .”
2. Al-Baghawi, Ma`alim al-Tanzil (2:393): “In this verse [Hud 73] there is a proof that wives are part of Ahl al-Bayt. … (3:428) He means by Ahl al-Bayt [in 33:33] the wives of the Prophet because they are in his house and this is the narration of Sa`id ibn Jubayr from Ibn `Abbas.”
3. Al-Baydawi, Anwar al-Tanzil (4:374): “The Shi`a’s claim that verse 33:33 is specific to Fatima, `Ali, and their two sons – Allah be well-pleased with them – … and their adducing it as proof of their immunity from sin (`ismat) and of the probative character of their consensus, is weak, because restricting the meaning to them is not consistent with what precedes the verse and what follows it. The thread of speech means that they are part of the Ahl al-Bayt, not that others are not part of it also.”
4. Al-Khazin, Lubab al-Ta’wil fi Ma`ani al-Tanzil (3:490): “They [Ahl al-Bayt] are the wives of the Prophet because they are in his house.” Then he mentions the other two explanations, namely, that they are the `Itra or that they are the families of `Ali, `Aqil, Ja`far, and al-`Abbas.
5. Al-Nasafi, Madarik al-Tanzil wa Haqa’iq al-Ta’wil (3:490): “There is in it [verse 33:33] a proof that his wives are part of the Folk of his Household (min ahli baytihi). He said ‘from you [M] (`ankum)’ because what is meant are both the men and women of his family (âl) as indicated by {wa yutahhirakum tathûran = and cleanse you [M/F] with a thorough cleansing} from the filth of sins.”
6. Al-Tabari, Tafsir (22:7) [after citing reports explaining Ahl al-Bayt to mean the `Itra] and al-Wahidi, Asbab al-Nuzul (p. 299 #734): From `Ikrima concerning 33:33: “It is not as they claim, but the verse was revealed concerning the wives of the Prophet .”
7. Al-Zamakhshari, Tafsir al-Kashshaf (2:212): “In this [33:33] there is an explicit proof that the wives of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – are among the People of his House (min Ahli Baytihi).”
8. Al-Shawkani, Fath al-Qadir (4:278-280) ”Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrima, `Ata’, al-Kalbi, Muqatil, and Sa`id ibn Jubayr said the wives of the Prophet are specifically meant [in 33:33], and by house are meant the houses of his wives as mentioned before in the verses. While Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, Mujahid, and Qatada – it is also related from al-Kalbi – said that those meant are specifically `Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. They adduced the fact that the pronouns are in the masculine, but this was refuted by the fact that the noun Ahl is masculine and therefore necessitates a masculine gender as in the verse [Hud 73]…. A third group stands midway between the two and includes both [the wives and the `Itra]… A number of the verifying authorities consider this the most correct explanation, among them al-Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, and others.”
Al Shawkani says in his tafsir al fat-h al qadeer the various views, and he says:
فمن جعل الآية خاصة بأحد الفريقين فقد أعمل بعض ما يجب إعماله وأهمل ما لا يجوز إهماله. وقد رجح هذا القول جماعة من المحققين منهم القرطبي وابن كثير وغيرهما
“and whoever makes this verse refer specifically to either group exclusively (the wives) OR (fatima, ali, hassan, hussein) then he has included part but excluded part which is forbidden to exclude. And to this position a group of scholars has gone, including Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, and others.”
9. al-Mubarakfuri, Tuhfat al-Ahwadhi (9:48-49) : “Ibn `Abbas, `Ikrima, `Ata’, al-Kalbi, Muqatil, and Sa`id ibn Jubayr said the wives of the Prophet are specifically meant [in 33:33], and by house are meant the houses of his wives as mentioned before in the verses. While Abu Sa`id al-Khudri, Mujahid, and Qatada – it is also related from al-Kalbi – said that those meant are specifically `Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn. They adduced the fact that the pronouns are in the masculine, but this was refuted by the fact that the noun Ahl is masculine and therefore necessitates a masculine gender as in the verse [Hud 73]…. A third group stands midway between the two and includes both [the wives and the `Itra]… A number of the verifying authorities consider this the most correct explanation, among them al-Qurtubi, Ibn Kathir, and others.”
10. Al-Jalalayn: “Ahl al-Bayt [in 33:33] i.e. the wives of the Prophet(saw)”
11. Al-Sawi, Hashiyat al-Jalalayn: “It was said the verse [33:33] is comprehensive (`âmma) to mean the People of his House in the sense of his dwelling and these are his wives, and the People of his House in the sense of his lineage and these are his offspring.”
12. Al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur (6:603): [after citing the narrations of the `Itra] Ibn Sa`d narrated from `Urwa that he said: “Ahl al-Bayt [in 33:33] means the wives of the Prophet and it was revealed in the house of `A’isha.”
13. Ibn al-Jawzi, Zad al-Masir fi `Ilm al-Tafsir (6:378): “Then He showed their superiority over all women when He said: {You [feminine] are not like anyone [masculine] of the women} (33:32). Al-Zajjaj [the philologist] said: ‘He did not say, “like any other woman” in the feminine, because the masculine form denotes a general exclusion of both male and female [human beings], one and all.’”
14. Ibn Juzayy, Tafsir (p. 561): “The Ahl al-Bayt of the Prophet are his wives, his offspring, and his near relatives such as al-`Abbas, `Ali, and all for whom receiving sadaqa is unlawful.”
15. Al-Bukhari, Sahih: Hadith from Anas: The Prophet visited `A’isha and, upon entering her house, said: “As-Salâmu `alaykum Ahl al-Bayt! wa rahmatullah.” Whereupon she responded: “Wa `alayka as-Salam wa rahmatullah, how did you find your wives [ahlak]? May Allah bless you.” Then he went around to see all of his wives and said to them exactly what he had said to `A’isha.
16. Al-Wahidi, al-Wajiz fi Tafsir al-Kitab al-`Aziz (2:865): “Ahl al-Bayt [in 33:33] meaning, the wives of the Prophet and the men [and women] of the People of his House.”
17. Al-Tha`alibi, Jawahir al-Hisan fi Tafsir al-Qur’an (2:212): “This verse [Hud 73] shows that the wife of a man is part of the People of his House (min Ahli Baytihi)… and ‘the House’ in Surat al-Ahzab [33:33] refers to the dwelling quarters [i.e. of the wives].”
18. Ibn Kathir, Tafsir (3:532) and al-Wahidi, Asbab al-Nuzul (p. 299 #733): From Ibn `Abbas: “This verse [33:33] was revealed concerning the wives of the Prophet .”
19. Ibn Jama`a, Ghurar al-Tibyan fi Ma lam Yusamma fi al-Qur’an (p. 421 #1201) and al-Suyuti in Mufhamat al-Aqran fi Mubhamat al-Qur’an: “Ahl al-Bayt in verse 33 are the Prophet and his wives. It was also said they are `Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan, and al-Husayn, and it was also said they are those for whom sadaqa is unlawful [i.e. Âl `Aqil, Âl `Ali, Âl Ja`far, and Âl al-`Abbas].”
20. Al-Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi `Ulum al-Qur’an (2:197): “The phrasing of the Qur’an [in Surat al-Ahzab] shows that the wives are meant, that the verses were revealed concerning them, and that it is impossible to exclude them from the meaning of the verse. However, since others were to be included with them it was said with the masculine gender: {Allah desires to remove uncleanness far from you [masculine plural], O Folk of the Household}. It is then known that this desire comprises all the Folk of the Household – both male and female – as opposed to His saying {O wives of the Prophet} and it shows that `Ali and Fatima are more [specifically] deserving of this description ["Ahl al-Bayt"] than the wives.”
21. Al-Jassas, Ahkam al-Qur’an (4:378-379): “It [the verse Hud 73] shows that the wives of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – are of the People of his House (min Ahli Baytihi) because the angels names Ibrahim’s wife as being of the People of his House, and so has Allah Most High said when addressing the wives of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – when He said:… [33:33]. His wives are part of those meant because the beginning of the address concerns them.”
22. Abu al-Su`ud, Irshad al-`Aql al-Salim ila Mazaya al-Qur’an al-Karim (7:103):”This [33:33], as you see, is an explicit verse and a radiant proof that the wives of the Prophet – Allah bless and greet him – are among the People of his House (min Ahli Baytihi), ruling once and for all the invalidity of the opinion of the Shi`is who narrow it to mean only Fatima, `Ali, and their two sons – Allah be well-pleased with them. As for what they claim as their proof [hadith of the Mantle], it only shows that they [the Four] are part of Ahl al-Bayt, not that other than them are excluded.”
23. Sayyid Abul Ala Mawdoodi, Tafheem ul Quran (commentary 33:33) states: rather the more correct thing is that the verse is actually addressed to the wives and the children become included in the household only because of the sense of the word. That is why according to lbn ‘Abbas and ‘Urwah bin Zubair and `Ikrimah, the word ahl al-bait in this verse implies the wives of the Holy Prophet.
24. Mufti Shafi Uthmani, Maarif ul quran vol 7, pg 150: The sound position is that under the word ahlebayt the blessed wives are included in any case, because they themselves are the cause for the revealation of this verse. And the inclusion of the direction addresses of the revelation cannot be subjected to any doubts. And sayyiduna Fatima, ali, hasan , hussain (may allah be pleased with them all) too in accordance with the saying of prophet(saw) are included in ahlebayt.
25. Sayyid qutub, In the shade of Quran vol XIV , pg. 55-59 : The passage we are currently discussing now includes an address to the Prophet’s wives giving them instructions concerning their relations with other people, their own status and their relations with God. This address also includes a gentle directive expressed in fine style: “God only wants to remove all that is loathsome from you, you members of the [Prophet’s] household, and to purify you fully.” (Verse 33)
26. Ibn Hajar al Haytami; al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, Ch. 11, section 1, p220) He mentions what he considers is the correct opinion which is that ahl al bayt are his wives, Fatimah, Ali, al Hasan, al Husain, and Bani Hashim and Muttalib.
27. Imam Qurtubi: He states that it was Al Zajjaj’s opinion that the wives of the Prophet peace be upon him are included in the Ahlel Bayt
28. Sheikh Sha’raawi:He gives a nice argument from an Arabic linguistic point of view that the verse is including the wives of the Prophet peace be upon him he states: And it is noted in this verse as well: {Allah only wishes to remove from you impurity, people of household, and to purify you completely}[al-Ahzab: 33] that it is narrated regarding the women, rather it is an issue considered covering the men; thus consider the pronoun mentioned {…to remove from you (masculine plural)}[al-Ahzab:33] and it does not say “from you (feminine plural), and it is the same in: {…and to purify you completely}[al-Ahzab:33] and it proves true that by people of the household is intended the men and women altogether.
29. Maulana syed mohammad Naeem-ud-Deen Muradabadi (who was khalifa of ahmed raza khan barelwi): from this verse the fazilat of ahle bayt is proved, In ahlebayt wives of prophet(saw) and hz Fatima(ra), hz ali(ra). Hz hassan(ra), hz hussain(ra) are included . This is the conclusion when verse and narrations are referred and this was even the view of Imam Abu Mansoor Maturudi.( Khazaain-ul-Irfan, under verse 33:33)
30. Al-samarkandi said: ["Ahl al Bayt" is a masculine word, that's why the verse switches from feminine to masculine when referring to "Ahl al Bayt".] Now this means that he considered the previous verses of tatheer which were referring to wives of prophet(saw) compatible with the masculine form because he didn’t say the tense changes because of inclusion of males in it or a group in which some males were present was being referred, rather he said the change in gender of tenses is because of the word Ahlebayt itself being Masculine. (tafsir bahrul ulum by al-samarkandi (d. 375 AH))
The Scholars who declared that the majority of scholars include wives of prophet(saw) in Ahlebayt
1. Imam Ibn katheer(rah) said: This is a clear statement that the wives of the Prophet are included among the members of his family (Ahl Al-Bayt) here, because they are the reason why this Ayah was revealed, and the scholars are unanimously agreed that they were the reason for revelation in this case, whether this was the only reason for revelation or there was also another reason, which is the correct view.(tafseer ibn katheer, for verse 33;33) So he’s saying either way, they are part of the reason for the verse to be revealed.
2. Imam sakhawi(rah):
وقال السخاوي في القول البديع في بيان صيغة الصلاة في التشهّد: فالمرجع أنّهم من حرمت عليهم الصدقة، وذكر أنّه اختيار الجمهور ونصّ الشافعي، وأنّ مذهب أحمد أنّهم أهل البيت، وقيل: المراد أزواجه وذرّيّته… (عن هامش الصواعق المحرقة لعبد الوهاب عبد اللطيف: 146 ط. مصر 1385 هـ ).
Al Sakhawi says in “Al Qawl al badee fee bayaan Seeghat al Salaat fee altashahud”: and the conclusion is that they are those for whom charity is forbidden, and it has been mentioned that this is the opinion of the majority, and this is related from Al Shaf’ee, and in the school of Ahmed bin Hanbal that those are the Ahl al Bayt, and it was said: what is meant are his wives and his descendents.
3. Imam Qastalani(rah):
وقال القسطلاني: ان الراجح أنّهم من حرمت عليهم الصدقة، كما نص عليه الشافعي واختاره الجمهور ويؤيده قوله صلّى الله عليه وسلّم للحسن بن عليّ: إنّا آل محمّد لا تحل لنا الصدقة، وقيل المراد بآل محمّد أزواجه وذرّيّته.
Al Qastalani said: the correct answer is that they are those for whom charity is forbidden, as was recorded by al Shaf’ee and what was selected by the majority and supported by what was said by al Hassan bin Ali: The family of Muhammad, charity is not permitted for us, and it was said that what is meant by the family of Muhammad are his wives and descendents. [Al Kashf wal Bayaan by Al Thaalabi]
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Hassan_Ghol a écrit:
Bref tous les exegeses sunnites ou chiites sont unanimes sur le fait que la derniere partie du verset 33/33 s'adresse à 5 personnes en accentuant le chiffre 5 comme enoncé dans les hadiths ci dessus. Et encore nombre de recit non evoqués ici le confirme.
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as300 a écrit:
عن ابن عباس : ?إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ( [ الأحزاب : 33 ] . قال : نزلت في أزواج النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم خاصة .
الراوي: عكرمة المحدث: الذهبي – المصدر: سير أعلام النبلاء – لصفحة أو الرقم: 2/221
خلاصة حكم المحدث: إسناده صالح
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as300 a écrit:
Ikrima mawla ibn Abbas
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hassan a écrit:
Je te l'ai déjà dit, ici figurent les avis des savants, soit leurs tafseer si tu préfère, il n'ya rien d'anormal que les savants sunnites l’interprètent de cette manière, ils en ont même intérêts.
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as300 a écrit:
Peux-tu prouver que l'imam existe actuellement?
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as300 a écrit:
Peux-tu me donner des preuves de son activité?
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as300 a écrit:
tu vois zz95, c'est ce dont je te parlais, ils pataugent complètement dès qu'il s'agit de montrer concrètement le rôle de l'imam
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as300 a écrit:
Les savants sunnites que tu as cités, aucun ne croit que le verset ne s'adresse pas aux femmes du Prophète saws...
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as300 a écrit:
[www.chiite.fr]
chargement...
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