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منتدى المغرب و المغاربة حول العالم

Being Muslims, Arabs and Moroccans, we have certainly learnt that Western Governments will do anything to make their evil plans come true!

Due to the Isreali attacks on Lebanese Civilians, USA, UK and Isreal needed a dramatic event to re-direct the world's Attention far away from the Isreali massacre happening in Lebanon.

Guess what? Blair, Bush and Olmert have come up with this made-up story in Heathrow Airport incident to blame Muslims once again for being Terrorists!

Blair also is facing critics internally about his blind support to both the USA and Isreal Governments. In order divert this crisis, Blair needed an GREAT event!

Today's Heathrow's incident will automatically make every one think twice before they can criticise their Governments and hence Bush, Blair and Olmer come out of this as Winners again!

Till when we Muslims and Arabs have to deal with this?

Hi sbs,


any proof that's a big lie ?!....

Ilhem, the right question to ask in this situation is: Are there any proofs that an attack was being planned?

I do think the same as sbs for many reasons: The first one is obviously, whenever the western governments talk about terrorist cells, we never get to see the people involved or hear what they say about their accusations or even see them being trialed. The second one is I don't think the Al Qaida people are as stupid as the west tries to portray them, I think that bombing planes in the sky is a rediculous plan that will not serve the interests of Al Qaida in any way for it will only be a source of indignation in both the muslim world as well as the wester world. Third, it seems that all this information was obtained by the Pakistani secret services who apparently had arrested a couple of brits from pakistani origins a couple of weeks ago and these two inmates have mentioned the possible attack duing interrogations. We all know about the credibility of musharaf's regime.

Again as sbs said, this is just propaganda geared to bringing the attention of the world to the "true danger" ie the "Islamic fashists" as Bush likes to call us.

Jexingo, there never was an Al Qaïda to begin with, it's a myth. There's no structured organisation with a neferious boss at the top planning and ordering his minions to bomb stuff. It's been thrown out there, the govts and the media rolled with it. But there IS a bunch of psychos who read the Quran litteraly and are trying to revive a medieval vision of the world and impose it on muslims. Algerians can testify to that, even though their generals used them at the end, they were indeed trying to impose their vision on the algerian people. The problem in all this is that it's a complex web of lies and deceit and people don't take time to analyse, they want simple answers, "us and them", "good an evil". The worst plague of the last decade to me is the ambient stupidity that buys into any extremism that comes along.

Chelhman, you are entitled to your own opinion. As of the medieval vision, I do rather think that it's the west and ambient stupid muslims who encourage it not just with words but with arms as well. Chelhman, keep in mind that when the word medieval is only used to describe the christians societies that used to live in darkeness in Europe when the muslims were ruling the world. Islam has never been medieval and it will never be because it has as a source the creator of all beings from the begining of time until the judgment day. Islam is light and kufr is darkness and whether u beleive it or not the kufr forces have waged war against the ways of Allah since the creation of Adam. I am aware that I might be wasting your time for u might not be one of those who beleive in these "stories" so I'll talk to you in your own terms. Chelhman, the good forces of the west have chosen a way of live that they decided to name "democracy". Democracy is a religion where the people have the power to chose equally and legislate. When this so called "democracy" was tried in Algeria, it appeared that the Algerian people wanted to have an islamic government but the same west didn't want that to happen. U know the rest of the story, France got personally involved and some sick takfeeris were thrown in. The massacres were perpetrated from both sides, the Algerian army killed innocent civilians and the takfeeris who were actually agents of the Algerian and French government aslo killed innocents. This doesn't mean though that all those who fought against the corrupt regime of Algeria and its ally france were evil. Some did know the limits and fought in the sake of Allah and are still fighting in his sake. I agree with u on the web of lies and deceit and people not taking time to analyse but to some taking time means taking all the time.
The bunch of psychos are rather the ones who want to impose on muslims to let their women go out naked in the streets, legalize alcohol and drugs, they are the ones who hate the muslims who abide by the teachings of their religion. They are the same ones who want to keep the muslims poor and ignorant. Some bunch of psychos have sprung up on the other side because of lack of knowledge, they tend to make takfeer on muslims with no proofs and give themselves the right to kill them. Both are a great danger to the muslim ummah.

Hi All,

I have spent 2 long days in Stansted trying to help a friend of mine to get to Spain, his first flight was canceled on thursday, managed to get him another one for friday. We went there this morning and everything seemed to be running fine, done the checking, went inside when the guy was about to board the plane a message come up to say that flight was canceled for security reasons. honestly it was horrible most of the people did not want to get of the plane cos it was just outrageous. the feelings the queus of more than 3 hours going through all that slick checking and body being hand checked..people felt like they were living in a big brother state and u could see the dispair and the frustration in their faces.
on the 7/7/05 .the london underground was running on the same say the incident happened, knowing that millions of users were going to use the tube and that it was dangereous, why did we not get on with our lives as usual in this case ?? if they call us resilient??
watching the news this morning, some politicians have pointed out that the plot is just a scapgaot for the crisis in the middle east as brits usually do. If we go 2 months back we can remind ourselves of the forrest gate saga 2 brothers were accused of making explosif devices and even one them was shot and spent days in intensive care, bare in mind that they were a 100% sure of their intelligence and was based on facts and an ongoing investigation of months, later on they admitted that they have made a huge mistake and the brothers were released and were offered a public apology by the Police and the secret services, if it happened once it can happen again, what are the chances of it happening? ... Deminizez was shot for being innocent, the prime minister admitted to knowing about the plot more than a week ago, what matters public safety or his holidays ( he stayed 2 more days to defend his policy on he middle east crisis ) and he could not stay a week more to look after his own nation ??? poses a lot of questions.

Jexingo, so that there's no confusion for where I stand : I am a muslim and a secular, I believe religion should stay miles away from state affairs. I used the word "medieval" in its modern sense not to qualify the historical period.

Islam is light, you said ? Yes it IS light but the version of Islam being proposed by those extremists is darkness. Islam was "light" when knowledge was the primary goal of muslims not focusing on rituals and supersitions. Being a muslim is not wearing a beard and imposing the hijab on your wife, spitting on anyone who doesn't follow your logic, I've seen that with my own eyes.
Being a muslim is understanding ones environement, respecting others and above all, evolving, not living in the 16th century.

The West isn't my enemy, it's a civilisation like any other, bringing knowledge like we once did, after all we're using computers and the internet to communicate right now, you think the inventors prayed for that ?
Muslims must stop trying to rip dividends of an era long gone. We were great once, we are not anymore. The only way we can move on is to deconstruct the process that made us fail and learn from it.
I abhor this logic that wants to impose some sort of moral order, freedom of choice is the foundation of any viable system, otherwise it's a dictatorship, be it religious or political.


You mentioned women running naked in the streets, I've never seen that in our country, but if you mean because they're wearing skirts, how is that your business ? Religion is a personal affair, you can't presume to impose it on others.
You seem to believe that the West is waging a war against Islam : well there is political strategy developped by the neocons but it's not based on religious grounds, it's rather on economical grounds, if muslims didn't have oil under their feet, the West couldn't care less.
As for the attraction our youth has for the West, maybe because freedom of choice is more attractive than a set of rigid rules impossible to change because everytime you try, it's called blasphemy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2006 09:03 by chelhman.

was not islam a way of life, a model of life ? how do you define a muslim secular ?

what is a muslim that does not reflect -thru his lifebeing- what said the God and his messenger ?

thats amazing. I would love to see a definition of a muslim who is secular .. In other words, should I if i wanna practice my faith, and apply my principles (religious among others) should I stay away from politics, economy and more simply from professional life ? a Muslim believer is somebody who should "stay away from everything, just be a definition of a failing person ????

l9bi7, it's actually quite simple, you practice your religion and try not to impose it on others. Maybe the ethics of your religion can help draft a law, but religion is not open for debate, a political system is.

Let's take every theocracy ever created : it has invariably failed because laws are drawn from sacred books that cannot be changed. Laws evolve, they are amended, changed to fit their time, with the Chari3a it's impossible, because everything is carved in stone.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2006 06:15 by chelhman.

Chelhman, I am glad you are a muslim however I think there are quite some issues you don't understand about Islam. First of all, in Islam we are not allowed to take what we like and reject the rest. If u read surat Al Bakara u will fing that the jews did just that and theye were blamed for it. As muslims we do beleive in the entire Quran. Now if we consider the Quran and the set of Hadiths of the prophet peace be upon him we will see that the laws of Shariaa are of two types. The first ones are individual laws such as salat zakat ect. The other set of laws are directed towards the muslim community ie the Ummah. The concept of brotherhood in Islam on which the ummah stands is very strong. In fact, Allah describes the beleivers in the Quran as being brothers. As muslims we have the obligation of correcting each other by encouraging each other to do good and avoid evil as stated in the Quran. Without that we can no longer be the best Ummah that Allah has sent to the people. Chelhman, I agree with you that some muslims are not the best at giving advices and they would tend to be violent with their brothers and sisters when Allah SWT commanded us to be good to each other. One has to have a lot of patience and use the best words possible when talking to his brothers. Chelhman, is it my business to talk about my sisters running naked in the streets and my brothers drinking alcohol? yes it is according to the teachings of Islam for Allah has punished generations before us even though there were beleivers living amongst them because nobody cared about advising the evil doers.

You beleive that religion should stay miles away from politics, I beleive excatly the opposite. Actually I beleive that people should stay away from making laws for people are not perfect when the creator of people is. Allah SWT describes himself in the Quran as "Ahkamu Al Hakimine" and he describes those who reject his laws as "A fa hukma Al Jahiliyati yabghoun?" "Is it that they want the laws of Jahiliya?". This issue is actually the heart of the new crusade that Bush and co which u like to call the neocons are waging agaisnt Islam. Since the fall of the Khalafa, the muslim world has been shattered into small countries that are ruled by unislamic laws and now that the muslims want to repair that and unite as Allah ordered them under his laws the whole world is against them. Chelhman, you are free to beleive whatever you want but you shouldn't impose your thoughts on others as u stated earlier and if you think that your beleifs are of a higher quality then bring your proofs from then teachings of Islam.

As of the issue of beards and computers, this is another baseless argument the so called secular muslims love to bring time and again. Dear Chelhman, the whole world knows that Islam is a religion that teaches people to learn. Seeking knowledge is a primordial duty in Islam whether it is religious knowledge or other types of knowledge. Islam doesn't teach people to live in caves and ride donkeys when the rest of the world is communicating thru the internet. Don't let the enemies of the muslims play with your mind about this. The issue is rather with some people who tend to beleive that without drinking and sleeping around on friday nights the economy will fall down. Islam is not against learning and adopting the scientific advances of the west but Islam is against adopting the moral bunkrapcy of the west. U will never find a law in the Shariaa that says, building schools and hospitals and highways is haram but u will certainly find in it core laws that forbid the muslim ummah from sinking into moral failure. There is indeed room for political monouvering in Islam thus the concept of Shuraa. However, there is no getting around fundamental laws which are the only guarantie that we don't become animals.

Islam entails everything indeed.

Jexingo, our positions are diametrically opposed. I believe it is time for muslims to do some introspection. I believe we are imploding, the extremism of the last decade is the symptom of that.

A friend of mine who shares your beliefs told me that there are a lot of conversions of non-muslims, it was proof that Islam is thriving.
Europeans and north americans are drawn to Islam because we still have a sense of social justice and solidarity that ruthless capitalistic societies have forsaken, it has very little to do with deep seated spiritual attraction. But what the statistics don't tell is how many muslims have left the faith all together, because they are afraid of saying it out loud for fear of ostracism, most muslim countries have laws condemning apostate which brings me again to freedom of choice, people should be free to choose to worship or not, the state must not be allowed to regulate faith for a simple reason : no one, no governement holds the truth.

One last thing, my brother, there is no Ummah, it died a long time ago. They are countries with citizens, muslims or not, each country is defending its own interests, trying to develop its economy the best they can. The rest is just friday sermons. That's the harsh reality.
But we'll do what muslims have been doing for a very long time now : we'll agree to disagree.

Ba Jexingo how do you feel about 9/11 if you don't mind?

Guess the subjects is sidetracking. I thought since the begining that it was exactly to divert attention. The day before, the MPs were calling for an emergency meeting, while Blair is still on holidays. Lebanon, offering a proposition of deploying the army south. Olmert saying, it is an interesting proposal... then out of the blue! terrorist attack, and according to the media the worst ever. using liquid and powder chemicals to blow up planes... now tell me how would you blow up liquid and powder without a device for detonation... Do you guys remember some months ago when they raided a house and shot a person, and blamed him for terrorism... It came out front page! and when they found they were mistaken... who cares... it's just another freaking muslim anyways. They are just a bunch of ignorant stupid spindoctors!

Riffman, they mentioned nitroglycerine on CNN, it was supposed to be carried in a hand luggage. We all took planes since 9/11, there is no way they could have passed the tight controls before boarding. So either they are the dummest terrorists in history or the US and the UK don't even bother with elaborate lies anymore, they figure the ones they need to convince won't buy it anyway so they're just making noise to pander to their followers.

An update on the subject, you can watch the video by clicking just below the title, better than perousing the transcripts :

[www.democracynow.org]

and [news.independent.co.uk]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/11/2006 10:58 by chelhman.

Hi all,

Quote
Jexingo
Ilhem, the right question to ask in this situation is: Are there any proofs that an attack was being planned?

I do think the same as sbs for many reasons: The first one is obviously, whenever the western governments talk about terrorist cells, we never get to see the people involved or hear what they say about their accusations or even see them being trialed. The second one is I don't think the Al Qaida people are as stupid as the west tries to portray them, I think that bombing planes in the sky is a rediculous plan that will not serve the interests of Al Qaida in any way for it will only be a source of indignation in both the muslim world as well as the wester world. Third, it seems that all this information was obtained by the Pakistani secret services who apparently had arrested a couple of brits from pakistani origins a couple of weeks ago and these two inmates have mentioned the possible attack duing interrogations. We all know about the credibility of musharaf's regime.

Again as sbs said, this is just propaganda geared to bringing the attention of the world to the "true danger" ie the "Islamic fashists" as Bush likes to call us.

Jexingo to answer you,


you know.... speech like yours I’ve heard thousand and thousand times…it’s not new…that are all our arguments : our religion is the best… everyone who doesn’t believe on it should die….the western world is jealous of us and our religion so they will do and pretend every thing to destroy it….this all are illusions and our pure imagination…look at our countries full with all possible social problems….ignorance…..unemployment…illnesses…street kids…prostitution..drugs….corruption ….illiteracy…injustice…weak laws…no future or perspectives for young people…. ect….. I can’t remember it’s a lot….where is our religion? When our “Muslim” leader kill “Muslim” people just because they say no to their politic where is the sense of the religion in this ?!….how could “Muslims ” blow up innocent Muslims just like you and me even living in the same city with them (explosions in Casablanca….in Tunisia …in Egypt) pretending to follow god’s words ?!…this is not our religion and the Islam is innocent from theme and their crimes…. it’s time to wakeup from our dreams ….to see the reality….no one is jealous of our misery ….we should be rather jealous of the western world and what they ‘ve achieved since the end of the wold war II…. we all immigrated to their countries looking for better life because tey can offer us better life than our MUSlim countries...and indeed we’ve got rights and freedom....we are treated with dignity....people in our countries ( the Muslim countries) could dream of it and they will do and risk anything to go there…..the disaster is that lot of “Muslims” who exploded the bombs in the western countries were livin there …using the western facilities….some of them got help from the government since they were studying…they put bombs in public areas to kill tax payers …from those taxes our “good Muslims ” used to pay their food and studies….is this the Islam in your opinion?!


the middle east crisis will not be solved by the religion.... the Arab world is much more responsible for what’s happening now….no arabic country with all their populations and leaders has done any thing efficient to solve this problem since its begin…as for us we rather prefer to stay behind our pc and judge the whole world who is wrong and who is right because at the end we’ve got nothing to lose….after writing our messages everyone will go watch TV, go out with friends and enjoy the nice “western ”life….. those poor kinds, women and old people are suffering every single day in Gaza , Iraq and Lebanon…instead of finding as soon as possible a reasonable solution with Israel (because ther is no other choice) to stop the humain slaughter there we're rather sitting comfortably where we are encouraging the “good Muslims” to keep fighting…..making the hole between the western and our countries more deeper than it is.....if you think you're helping your Muslim brothers with this.... I wish you good luck then …

If u have realised something we come here to discuss the plot you ended up discussing religion...if we can do that between us muslims..imagine what the non-muslims are entitled to...guess i can not blame them for doing so ..and by the way that was the goverment intention to divert everyone's attention from what is important and focus on wasting our time on a minor and sided issues ...go back to the subject ..discussing religion over the net will never help but just argue more It is a sensible subject

Relief,

please read again the different posts you’ll realise the heart of the matter is the religion …what’s happening now can’t be separated from the religion…..

wassalam

and so politics should not sperate from religion either

Ilhem L9bi7

none of us here is qualified to talk about religion from what I saw..I believe that there is only one way of thinking about Islam ..so if everyone one of us is gonna say ..Isalm says this not it says this and no it does say this ..and u r wrong and I`m right no u r wrong and I`m right I think that we should stick to the subject rather than talking about religion because we commit sins by changing the meaning of things and misleading others without knowing it so please be sure before u say another thing about Islam and associating it to the subject..My apologies that is my opinion

Hi

Relief,

what I’m trying to say is that you can’t discuss this matter without considering the religion (which doesn’t mean we are allowing ourselves to be imam of mufti ) because the people getting involved are pretending to act by the name of the Islam……the subject is the religion as motivation for some people to do what they are doing…the western world says the war is between them and the religion’s fanatics …the other side says they are following what God says… how would you discuss it excluding the religion for example?…I’m wondering!….

hi
Ilhem

and don`t we all know that it is a bunch of lies...the real motifs behind the wars is a fianacial gain...think about it ..why do we have to justify ourselves ...it is a weakness ..to do so ..being on the defence...If u wanna win a war of words...try to discuss their weakest points ..not letting them set a subject and following it....I don`t see the need of justifying why I practise Islam to Bush or Blair in order to be accepted...that is my opinion....I would rather attack ..by discussing their weakness such as morals..greed..way of life...and for once let them justify themselves...we are discussing the subject because we gave them the chance to do so If a westerner tells me that the war in Iraq is religion motivated...I would answer him by asking to justify why the US ..has detroyed the oldest museum in the world and protecing the ministry of Oil and Energy...was this move religion motivated action or financial Let them justify themselves ...they don't like the pressure and they do crack easy as soon as u push the button

vicious circle...as usual....

And it seems now that the so-called terrorists didn't have tickets to board the planes, and some didn't even have passports... like someone said once " fear is the tool to dominate mankind"!!

Hi Riffman,

Here's an article that confirms what you said about the plane tickets and more. It raises the question on the nitroglycerine nonsense, specifying that dogs would have sniffed that a mile away. What will be interesting to watch is the coming "october surprise" in the US just before the elections. Last time it was a tape from Ben Laden which gave a boost to the Bush campaign, I wonder what they'll come up with this time.


[counterpunch.org]

Chelhman,
Yes, fortunately there are lots of information about how governments are using terror to distract attention, or simply inject a dosis of fear into the public. We all know that fear is the best way to rule people.
I would like to ask one question, what's your opinion regarding conspiracy theories?

Riffman,

Which one ? The latest I've taken an interest in, is 9/11 of course. We can swap notes, let's open a post on it if you want to discuss thoroughly. Cheers !

hi everybody, you're right, fear is the suitable way to rule people, and that what happen in all "arabic" country, but we are not alone, even americans, that i consider as a stupide poeple, are ruled like that, espeacially after the 9/11.

YOur story is really funny!!!
U, surely, among those who rejoice internally and in private rooms with your arabic and islamic friends upon terrorist events as those of 9/11 or others and who publicly reject them as american/jew's conspirationist tragedies!!
Your kind is no longer credible nor worth attention!!!

Kouider

kouider or kadder ???

here is a deal....go and see a psychiatrist ..will do u a great deal...and being sarcastic is no good...I`m still wondering...do u speak arabic....or just berbere...or when u do read the coran..do u read it in berbere....being berber proud is one thing ...being bigheaded is a problem ....I smell Hypocricy in u r lines my dear...God be with u Son